Grace Witter  0:01  
Okay, so today on Tech Sisters, we have Shabana Ahmed. Shabana is a senior UX designer and has spent over 10 years designing experiences and interfaces for international companies and startups. Her experience covers everything from finance to health tech, and she's presented and led UX workshops around the world. Shabana's passion for design and improving everyday experiences is so apparent in everything she does. She's also written and illustrated a kids book, Mashallah, we're so excited to welcome Shabana as our latest tech sister. Hey, Shabana. Hi, Grace. Thank you for having me. Excellent. So how about we start off by just talking about how you first got into tech in the first place?

Shabana Ahmed  0:42  
Great. I've always loved technology from when I was small. And I think I didn't really understand, you know, the complexity of technology. But anything where you know, you're bridging gaps, or technology was making something new possible. I've always, I've always been interested in that. And I think my first job actually really sort of cemented that I'm doing the right thing. And I'm, you know, inshAllah in the right place. So my first contract was as a web designer for a role in a pharma company. And they hired me to design the UI and build out pages in a CMS system. And I thrived in that environment. I learned about component designs really fast. And it was a it was a good project and lots of good experiences. So they gave me the challenge of producing the email campaigns to go with the website. And I remember at that time, I thought, Oh, this is very strange, because I didn't have any software. And I also didn't code. That's not my background. So I learned how to do very basic coding from the help of Google and YouTube. And some good people at the company. And I just fell in love with designing technology. And I never looked back.

Grace Witter  1:55  
Alhamdulillah that's really, really cool. It's really interesting hearing that you're, you came through it through design first and technologies as second point of entry Mashallah. And I think email templates are a very different sort of thing than web pages when you're used to doing one thing,

Shabana Ahmed  2:15  
especially with all the different browser testing. So you know, you're going in blind and your design, you're writing something in Notepad and you're in you're thinking, this feels good. And then when we were doing the testing in the different browsers, I remember always thinking, Oh, my goodness, everything looks horrible.

Grace Witter  2:34  
Yeah, definitely. So I think that kind of goes into another thing that I know that you're really passionate about is doing testing before you ship and really making sure that things work across different browsers and different accessibility levels. Do you wanna talk some more about why that's important? Or how's where you go about doing that?

Shabana Ahmed  2:52  
Yeah, absolutely. I think from a just sort of like a UX hat perspective, is that people are different devices vary, technology is different. We cannot say that there is a gold standard of good experience. Because all those things I've mentioned, they're changing all the time. They're always evolving. And our goal is to solve users problems. But it's also if you take a holistic approach, we're trying to make things better, we're trying to make your life easier. With that in mind, we have to cater to the different device sizes ond OS, so different systems that people are accessing, and also how they're accessing digital experiences in their in their normal life. Testing really, really matters. So. So yeah, I absolutely agree. It's something to be cognizant of. And if you're passionate about it, it helps. And also, we sometimes have an assumption, and I think this is very common, we have an assumption that everybody is on a particular level of OS or everyone has an iPhone or an Android user, and they're probably using this type of device. That's fantastic. Because we live in the West. What about what about the rest of the world? What about the third world countries where actually people are very technically very savvy and technology is a huge part of their lives. But they perhaps they don't have the economy to be using the kind of devices that we are designing and testing for in maybe the UK or the US. Again, that's that's a question of testing. And it makes you think about sort of browser, browser versions, and of course, device types.

Grace Witter  4:32  
Mashallah, one of the things that really jumped out at me when I was looking over your, your history was Mashallah, you've worked on so many interesting projects. And I've noticed that there is more of a trend where you won't stay at one place for too long. And I want to ask, Well, I guess was that intentional? And maybe what were some of the advantages that you noticed from changing jobs and projects quie frequently

Shabana Ahmed  5:02  
Great constant grace makes me laugh when I hear about it like that. But you know, yes, you're right. So I think, um, with, with time spent at companies and organisations, I never look at the time as the value. I always look back, or I'm looking at myself in that given space. And I think so, you know, what am I doing? And how am I contributing? And is this good for me? And am I doing something good for other people. So I tend to see my time in companies as project lead. So as an example, I might, I might be hired to be on a project. And I know that project is for, I don't know, a year to maybe two years, and we're going to deliver a SAS ecosystem maybe, and perhaps we're going to the roadmap will take us through to different parts of the world. And the user base will be in the hundreds and 1000s. And we're solving these types of complex problems. I won't look at that as time per se, but I will look at that as project and delivery. When these things come to fruition. And inshallah, if we work really hard, and we successfully ship and we deliver and it's and it's been good. I might be then put on two different projects, or, you know, my path might change. And if I think right, the next thing that's coming up will not match the kind of the opportunities, the education and the growth as this one, then I might think to myself, unless there's anything else that will then I will move on. The other thing is there are two lots of benefits. And I think it's I think it's common of millennials to want to move around, because we get exposure to different types of projects, different industries, and of course, different people. As a woman, I have personally found that I can navigate a better salary. I it has kindly helped me in terms of promotion, that it's been kind to me, it hasn't been negative for me so far, inshallah. And I think, also is to see more of the world. And when I say world, I'm not talking about travelling, but design, you know, Grace is such a vast landscape, you it's, you cannot stay in one place, and really be educated and experience things and also fail and overcome, learn things. If you're in one place for a very long time, that's just my personal opinion, I have found that every time I've moved to a different agency, or client side or an organisation, you know, that landscape, I'm like, wow, like, I'm travelling again, and I am learning and I'm seeing different things. And that's come with the change.

Grace Witter  7:41  
I love that so much. So panela I love always challenging yourself and always measuring what if what you're doing is matching up with those values that you have, if you're having that opportunity and education and growth. Like you said, I really like the idea of always being moving. But moving towards that purpose of being alignment with yourself and what you want to do.

Shabana Ahmed  8:05  
You know, 100% I think also one of the things that I try to do for myself is to be brave. So I think growth is really important it regardless of sort of what you're doing in life, whether you're actually whether you are a parent or you are working but growth in life is it really matters. Accepting change is scary, but it teaches you to be brave. And every time I've done this, I have always usually thought to myself like oh my goodness, I'm starting this new thing and I don't know about this or I'm feeling nervous, all this part is scary. But in the end, like no one you know, no one died, so to speak. Like you you probably had some kind of like difficult moments, but it will force you to grow, educate yourself go and be better strive for more. And that's great. That makes me feel like you know, inshallah moving forward with my life and I am doing something good.

Grace Witter  9:00  
Yes, I do. Like how we're bringing in that difficulty that comes with growth. I think in I think that there's I think it's even in the Quran, that there's a metaphor of a seed having to crack before it grows. There has to be some moment where there is some difficulty that you're pushing through to allow you to grow. And if you're in a situation where it's easy, but you don't you stay stagnant.

Shabana Ahmed  9:26  
Yeah, absolutely. And also another thing someone told me years ago, I think I read this actually online, which is when growth hurts, that's when you know it's working. And I just thought wow, many times in my life I've played very safe in professional and personal because that's that's normal. That's that's normalised and you know, as we get older and certainly when you're an adult, you kind of you you that child inside that was so creative, and so brave is gone. And that's why we want to be safe, and I just thought, Oh gosh, that resonates so much. So when growth hurts, hang in, guess what it's about to get better. It's easy to say, but it's it's you know.

Grace Witter  10:07  
And you can really look, you can see it when you're looking back, you know, the next year, five years later and realise Oh, yes. Because I went through that nice opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. But the next question I think really ties in is what happens when that doesn't work out immediately, or you're in a really tough situation. And it's, you're really struggling? Have you experienced that? And what did you do to resolve that? And keep going?

Shabana Ahmed  10:36  
Yeah, absolutely. I think last year for me was so pivotal. So the former agency, I was put on furlough. And then unfortunately, we got to a situation with our clients where they made some of the stuff redundant. And I was out of work for over six months. And at first, I was, it did hit me because I've never been unemployed unless it's been my choice. So this is this is different. And I just thought, Oh, gosh. But once I got past that, I tried to use that time as a gift. And I really tried to reset myself as much as possible. I, you know, I knew, you know, actually, Allah's put the world in quite strange circumstances, uncertain circumstances. Historically, we've not had something like this for a very long time. So I try to make the best of of what I could do and what was in my control. So honestly, Grace, I cycled a lot. Almost every day, I went and spent time in nature, I also learned to be comfortable with being lost. So I do get frightened if I can't navigate. I can't read naps, either. I'm really terrible at that. So yeah, I got lost more than a few times. But you know, Hamdulillah, like you always come home. And it's about having that sense in something. I think it's a tawakkol. Like, you have to believe that there are there are good things and good things will happen for you. So I kind of also said that to myself. I also made a switch in my own life, which was pre pandemic, my routine was work. And then I was fitting in my self, parts of my Deen around it. During this time, there's lockdown, and I don't have a job. I did my best to make my salah my schedule. So I flipped it. And I actually use sallah to be a compass in my day, that helped me to actually curb things like depression, the feeling of being useless or not or not being or not having a purpose. Like it helped me curb that. And I also, I did loads of mentoring, actually Grace, voluntary work. So to the wider community I gave back in design, I joined projects for short sprints, and it was all voluntary, so maybe helping them just to get over the line with with UX that is kind of like beta worthy. Mentoring gave me an opportunity to speak to so many younger women that are interested in a design career or specifically UX or user research, just asking for advice, and, you know, any sort of guidance and help so I was That was amazing. I was really happy to do that. And the last part of that is I just watched a lot of Korean dramas, okay. A lot. You know, I know that two or three lads grace, you know, in Korean,

Grace Witter  13:34  
so impressed, basically an expert then. That's great. I really like how there is that parallel that you had in getting lost literally lost in nature. And you also said that the Sallah was your compass. And I think that's just really beautiful mashAllah, where we're really at this point where you're making this pivotal change, pivotal, growth, you're shedding all these things that can distract us and like you said, tawwakul you're having total faith in Allah, that means that he's gonna see you through that this is a purpose for you and it's going to lead you to better things and lead you closer to him inshallah

Shabana Ahmed  14:20  
hamdulillah something I also read that that was so pivotal because it is very easy to, to fall into bad patterns, mentally when you're not in your sort of normal routine or when things change. And I read that when you wake up and you pray fajr for me, pre pandemic, this was just because it's part of my salah and it's, it's it starts early and you pray and you go on and you pray for a good day. Well, also the one who pray wakes up for this salah and prays has already won one in the day. So when I came to that later, when I was feeling a bit lost, and I, you know, I was starting to feel weak, mentally, I thought, you know, how can you be? How can you be so sad that you don't have a job or like you're finding it hard to get a job, when you have already won the day, because you pray fajr, you wake up for any prayer on time that you've already won. And, like, it's just a small ways where, you know, Allah loves us so much, and helps us feel so good. That, yeah, that I think that, you know, that really, again, that goes back to the conference, and that carried me through that time really, really well.

Grace Witter  15:38  
The sub beautiful Subhanallah I think, I think in some degrees, that's really the true beauty of going through a difficult time through going through trials. Because we, you know, it says in the Quran, that we're going to be tested through our livelihoods and our families, and these things are so difficult, but the whole purpose of it is to come closer to Allah and whoever can remember to say, inna illahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon, to Allah we belong and we're going to return to Him. Those people are going to have rewards beyond rewards. In sha Allah, Allah insha Allah, it's one of my favourite verses. But Subhanallah it's Yeah, there's this is beauty and tranquillity that we get in the heart when we go through this trial. And we remember to turn to Allah and we just say, like, I don't know what's going on. I love I'm putting it in your hands and I have complete trust that you're going to see me through and that this is going to be better for me inshallah.

Shabana Ahmed  16:44  
Absolutely, and you know, you've just reminded me as well so we are, we are encouraged as as Muslims to return to nature. So every time we look at the skies, we're in landscapes, if we're lucky enough to be near the water, mountains, forestry greenery anywhere. Surely, we will look at the beauty and remember, Allah says remembrance. And that is also part of cycling. So like, I I love bikes anyway, and I love cycling, but also leaving home so you're leaving the bricks of the stone, you're leaving residential life, if you can go into greenery or you know, a bike route, you're closer to what you're not for me what my normal life isn't, and wasn't. And absolutely, like, I put all my fears. I just put them out when I go cycling, and that chance to reflect in nature. 100% I think, Oh, look, you know, just look at the creation and look how much Allah has made for us and how extraordinary. So if Allah can do all of this, it just imagine what Allah does for us anyway. And like I just said to myself, like, you are not allowed to see this time where you are made redundant and you don't have a job and you feel aimless. You're not allowed to feel those things forever. Because we're blessed. We're very lucky alhamdulillah we are so blessed aren't we?

Grace Witter  18:09  
Alhamdulillah, you were saying that during the lockdown. I also like to go out into the woods. I'm not a cycler. But I like to walk a lot. And I would just go out into the woods. And I'd let the kids just run off way ahead. Right and enjoy some silence. But I was even thinking like my eyes would be so tired from looking at a screen all day. And then I'd be outside nature and just looking at the colour of the leaves is such a basic thing. Just that shade of green, it feels so soothing. Yes, it's absolutely. Alhamdulillah we got really deep there. So let's take it back to UX for a little bit. So what sort of mindset Do you need to get in to make all these really beautiful user experiences that you do? What's your process?

Shabana Ahmed  19:07  
So I've always tried to solve problems through storytelling. And here's the trick, if you can't describe what the problem is in a few sentences, or clearly, then there isn't a problem. So storytelling is is my first sort of go to and I actually do this. So I illustrate a lot. And if I can make something better for someone, it will start with sketching and I will start to look at the life around them. Their sort of needs, and unmet needs really important. And like just coming, stepping away from sort of before I go into a project, I've got two mantras and one of them so when I was 17 Grace, I went to Redding art college to study Art Foundation. And in the library, I found a book and this designer has become my favourite designer Paul Rand. And he said that good design is good will. And when I read that I strangely felt like I came home. Everything about that mantra makes sense. And I apply it to every project. Every time I'm on a new team, new project, I repeat to myself, good design is good will, and that makes me want to create better solutions and do things that benefit people. And the other side of it is is like, as I've grown older in my career, I got to a point where I thought am I doing? So sometimes grace, like you, you know, I might get offers, and they are interesting opportunities. And they're good challenges. But for example, it might be within gambling, and then immediately I'm like, nope, no, thanks. Yeah. So as I got older, I tried to apply ihsan because he really matters what we do in our lives. And even as a UX designer, I've got social responsibility. So I don't take my job as like, you know, whatever. Like I yes, I'm passionate about it. But I'm very mindful of what I do as well. Because, you know, wanting to strive for for better

Grace Witter  21:11  
suppiler I love that you have that purpose. And a UX, I love that you have the the focus, not just on yourself and trying to get to the next project, but on how you're going to benefit the world benefit the people who are going to be using this not just making it easier for them, but really bringing a benefit to their lives. And I it's really interesting hearing that that comes through that mantra, and that foundational history and design.

Shabana Ahmed  21:40  
Yeah, I think, um, have you heard of design for waste? No. So there's also a principle of, so let's face it, there are many of us in the world, that there is a lot of UX designers, experienced designers, product designers, UI designers, so on and so forth. And there is also a lot of technology and digital experiences, apps, websites, repos that are out there in the ether. And when you have so much overkill, design sometimes can lose its meaning and can lose its simplicity, and purpose. So then you get this kind of wealth of like design waste, which is just, if you can imagine it's just kind of like a truckload of trash, but it's out there, and it's being sold, or it's being offered as a service or a product. All of that stuff I'm, I am also kind of mindful of so it might if I'm in a project, I always really question things so much. So you know, we're talking about, for example, the service, well, why does it matter? How do we know people need it? Let's research it, let's do something very lean. Let's get this idea. And let's prototype and see what the demand is. Or if there's a feature. So for example, it may be that the the PEO or you know, VP, so we want some kind of feature where somebody can access financial data, and then they can do this and they can talk to a chatbot. Okay, sounds fantastic. So you've solutionist. But I don't want to design for design waste, because VP think it's cool or VP think it will stand up with competitors, or the VP think that it will lead to IPO? To me, if you're just doing things without really thinking or being cognizant this, this contributes to design waste.

Grace Witter  23:33  
Interesting. So it's not just a physical waste, but which it could be. But it's also just a waste of, of intentions of waste of time on the user. If it's not really giving them any benefit.

Shabana Ahmed  23:47  
Yeah, and also, you know, because we do actually like this is the times that we're living in, and it just country, it contributes to noise, the excess noise that we created that we don't need. So all designers again, I think it does come back to sound like you have social responsibility. Really think about what you're doing, do it with excellence, make it matter.

Grace Witter  24:12  
I should look at my think about putting ihsan in my work is something that is, I don't know, it's you always strive for excellence in the deen. But it feels kind of funny to take it into like coding or something code with ihsan. But absolutely, we should be doing. Yeah,

Shabana Ahmed  24:32  
I was gonna say like, I think you probably already do that anyway. So you're probably really conscious of the code that you write doesn't make sense. Does it work? Are there bugs? You know, is this healthy enough to to, to deploy? Is it good enough? And you know, even at that sort of level, yes, you are applying a fan because what you're writing, maybe, like me, hundreds and 1000s of other people will launch in a browser and we'll look at it and we'll input our data and like if you made it better for us grace. Yeah, that's that that is your sound. That's intention. Right?

Grace Witter  25:05  
Absolutely. That is subhanAllah. And that makes it, it feels so much better when you're looking at your work as a way of having excellence of the way of bringing benefit instead of just, you know, you're clacking away on the keyboard to get a paycheck at the end of the month. 100%. Okay, ShabanaI'm having so much fun talking to you. Yeah. We always have a conversation. Okay, so how about let's talk about something that you're most proud of it can be in life or a project that you've worked on something that you really, really feel joyful? Talking about it?

Shabana Ahmed  25:47  
Yeah, I think two things, the first thing that comes to mind is that a few years ago, I saved up and it took me a few years to save up to take my parents and myself, we went to Hajj, and 2018. And the drive for that was my mom. So it was her dream, but she had come to the realisation that it would not come to fruition in her life, she just couldn't see a way that it would happen. And for me in the background, like that was enough motivation for to save up, I did not know when it was when it would happen, or when it would be achievable. And also, it might sound silly, but I didn't know like, what is the price of going on Hajj? Like, if you live in the UK? Well, it is quite expensive, if not more than going on holiday? For sure. Sure. So to take Mum, take dad and then myself that, yeah, I'm really proud of that, because I just didn't think that I would be the person to be able to do that for them. Or that even I would go. I was also going through so much difficulty and pain in my own life. So I remember getting on the plane, you know, we took a picture to be sent. And that picture will go to Saudi Arabia, and it becomes part of your idea when you're there as a tool. And even in that picture, when, if sometimes I look back at it, and I just think, gosh, you look look incredibly sad and broken. So we went and hajj changed my life. Absolutely. Changed my heart, my life, my everything, you know, it saved me. So I'm very proud of that. Because I worked hard for that I couldn't piece it together that my intentions on how and what's going to happen, but, you know, you like a seed was planted and you started somewhere, you know, a few years ago, and then I can look back and just and I can say, you know, alhamdulillah like I had that experience. So I'll always be proud of that. If, if, if it's okay to say so. Yeah. And the other thing that's kind of not necessarily personal related is I published a children's book. So I wrote a few story years ago, Grace, actually, and it's because so my sister is a teacher. And sometimes she'll talk to me about what's going on in the British education system, you know, the kind of problems that children are facing. And like years and years ago, she was telling me how the schools in Britain are becoming flooded with the migrant children and they are either coming to England for better life, they are fleeing persecution, and war. When they come to Britain, and they go into schools, parents and teachers a think they're so small, just get them into schools, they'll be fine. But actually, they're not. And the teachers, they're doing such a good job, but they're not equipped to, to support and educate children that come from war, let alone children that come from a background where English is not the first language. So you know, a lot of these children get lost in the system. I thought about that, I just thought, okay, we know that children are the future, we know that we have to do things that is going to be better for them, whether it's in terms of climate, or in terms of just even mental health. So I wrote a story and the story is like, it just pivots around. You have to start with self belief. You have got to be okay with who you are, how you are made. And then go one step further. Like love yourself first. And then good things will happen for you. But be be okay, accept who you are. And if you're different to everyone else in the room or that bus or the workplace that he handled. That's great. That's don't ever think it's a bad thing, but that's a wonderful thing. So it's about self empowerment just you know, in a nutshell, but I wrote the story ish in my mind, but I illustrated it first because that's the secret job I've always wanted. He was like right got got most of the I think I had about 60% of the illustration work done. And then go into publishing companies is really hard grace because I got really lovely But I got rejections. I got so many rejections. And then I think like two years later. Yeah, Alhamdulillah you know, I managed to get it published. And sometimes like I look at and I'm like, no way. Did you get that publish? It just makes me laugh. I just I can't believe that I got to do it. But yeah, it makes me happy

Grace Witter  30:19  
that your sister show it to her children in class?

Shabana Ahmed  30:23  
Yes, yes. Actually, they invited me to come to school, but then the pandemic and stuff. It just never, it never came to. But I would love to you and I just think if any child reads reads this, and takes away any message about themselves, which is you're already wonderful. Honestly, like, I'll be happy. That's that's my that's me made.

Grace Witter  30:44  
But I love I love that hajj story. How did I just find out how your parents did you surprise them? Like, oh, here's the hajj tickets.

Shabana Ahmed  30:54  
I didn't I wish I could, but I didn't have the guts because it was going to be a lot of money. And I had to be certain that I'm sure mom and dad also they want to go. I mean, it's like, yeah, like, of course you want to go. But um, and it was also like, awkward. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Busy washing my hair. Bam. So I told him I, I just said, you know, I've sat down with him. And I said, I've made this New York, and I've done this, and I've got the money and we're going to go out first. And he and my mom and dad were really emotional. I think my mom cried. And she said, we can't go and I said, Why mom? And she goes, she said, because it's too much money. And that's so typical of parents. And I said to my mom, I said, You know what, Mom, like we spend money on homes. And Homes is like a huge thing in my culture, like having a, you know, a big home or even a beautiful home and furniture. And then of course, there's cars, and the clothes that we wear. It doesn't mean you're bad. And like it's very human to do that. But I said, you know, Mom, like, we have spent lost a lot of money. But we should never think twice if we have the opportunity. Why would we think twice. She just felt guilty because I'm her child. And I think parents don't think about you know, they don't expect it that way. But I was like, you know, let's be happy this is this is a good thing to do. It's the right thing to do. And we will all just totes emotion grace, and then we were like, Let's

Unknown Speaker  32:29  
win the money. Let's my account. I was like, whoa.

Grace Witter  32:35  
This puts an end to the celebrations pretty quickly. Basically, I was like, eating bread and baked beans though. Yeah, that's it. But no, that's so beautiful. I think that's in our children in such a burqa for us and to be able to do this for your parents is extremely beautiful, Mashallah. And I haven't been on hij but I we hear stories coming back all the time of people who are really taking care of their parents even caring their elderly parents so that they can participate in the hij and it's such an honour that you're able to do that for your own parents Mashallah.

Shabana Ahmed  33:14  
All thank you and inshallah Your time is written and your time will come,

Grace Witter  33:18  
inshallah, and for everyone else listening inshallah we could all go on Hajj many times. I mean, Allah. So in all of this, in your career, what's one thing that you regret, or you sort of wish that you did differently?

Shabana Ahmed  33:39  
career has been difficult. It's always been difficult because I don't look like when I was coming up in design, you know, I don't look like a white male. So it's always been tough to figure. Yeah, exactly. So I've always, you know, experiences like good experiences, but also bad experiences. And yeah, they make you stronger and wiser. So I try to see the good in them. But I think one thing that I just wish that I had confidence to treat it differently would be I was a lead designer in a in an agency and an art director come in, and that person, just just from kind of like week one, bullied me, bullied me a fair amount but always in isolation or in secrecy, lots of gaslighting, and yeah, if I could go back and speak to myself, I would say be strong stand up for yourself but also, don't let bullies get away with behaviour because that's how it comes normalised and just to have confidence, like have some strength within but clearly I was lacking a lot of confidence probably in my in my occupation. But I will say one thing so today, how I feel and where I am in my journey. I know what bad behaviour looks like, I know what bullying, I know how it presents, and also quite protective on my team, I will not, I will not accept any kind of low or shady behaviour for anyone in my team or stand up for them. And I'm better at standing up for myself. So that's what I've taken away from that, I guess.

Grace Witter  35:22  
Suppose what we were talking about before how a painful experience will lead to growth and lead to benefits for others. Because he went through that you're able to recognise it and see the signs and protect the people around you. Now,

Shabana Ahmed  35:34  
I have to say it took me a while grace. So you know, I came out of that agency, feeling quite humiliated and quite bad. And what I'm saying today, like it's taken me years to come to a position of I actually feel quite strong just in myself as a human being. But it took me years, that's a lot of work. Right. So that's the positive I would, I guess, take away from it. Oh, hamdulillah Yes,

Grace Witter  36:05  
I suppose you know, when when we are going through that transition or learning those hard lessons. It's, it does take lots of work to get through that lots of introspection. And there's a lot of like growth that goes around outside of that. So to get to that level of confidence in the strength that you're at now, you probably went through other things to help build your confidence up until you're at a point where you're able to look back on that experience. And like, so this happened. And I can now evaluate in this different light.

Shabana Ahmed  36:40  
Yeah, really nicely. Like you articulated that really nicely. Yeah, I think it is a combination ?

Grace Witter  36:49  
Okay, last question that I have for you today? What is something or someone in your whole journey that you're most grateful for?

Shabana Ahmed  36:59  
Oh, goodness, you know, like, I think grateful to so many wonderful people that have helped to shape my design career. Because people share wisdom, and they share pieces of themselves with you that I've grown from. I think one thing that I always I often remember is, in my first year extra aware that my specifically the title was easy. I was as user experience and interaction designer at a software company. So I was a little bit nervous, because I've never had that specific title, I felt a lot of responsibility. And I was given two, I'd say pretty heavyweight projects. I remember one day the head of your works, she sat all of us down. And she said to all of us. Imagine already. So imagine that you are a world class design team. And when she said it the way she looked at us, she looked at us as if she's looking at a world class design team. And I just remember thinking, oh my goodness, wow. Like, she's looking at us in a way. I couldn't imagine myself being and I'm not, but the power of kindness. positive affirmation is huge. This, it's important, especially if you don't feel good enough for the job, or, you know, everyone has has their pockets of doubt. But that kind of mindset. I try to share that with other designers. So another thing that I think coupled with that, is I one of my favourite designers, Diane Von Furstenberg, she says that every girl's best friend should be herself. First. All these things kind of come together. And it's about being good to yourself. So yeah, I think that had a it's such a small thing as an embrace, like, imagine your world class design team. But that didn't have the gold medal around your neck. Yeah. It's the mentality though, because it means a lot to say that. If your design is world class, or if it has gravitas on a global level, that's really huge. It means you're really mindful of your work. You're conscious, you're doing good things, and you're creating solutions that that work like that. There is no bigger trip for UX designer than users using your product because it works well. That's That's it. That's fantastic. So yeah, like that that mantra was, you know, significant. Yeah.

Grace Witter  39:38  
It's interesting because that goes right back to the sound again, you think of yourself as a world class designer, and you're doing it with excellence you're doing with intentionality, you're doing it with this and it goes hand in hand. Yeah, it's purpose really, isn't that Yeah, that's it. Mashallah, what a good theme because that's what we started off with is you focusing on your purpose and aligning with your values and this is how you do great work. This is how you take care of yourself is really focusing on the things that fill you up and are aligned to your purpose aligned to your values that you feel excited and expansive about and doing it with this sun and excellence.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai