Grace Witter  0:06  
Assalamu Alikum you're listening to tech sisters stories. Tech sisters is a community that supports Muslim women in tech through storytelling and sisterhood. My name is Grace, and I get to interview the amazing women in our community share their stories and the lessons they learned. I hope you enjoyed the show.

Okay, today on tech sisters stories we have Kemi Hassan. Kemi is a Silver Star Award winning agile coach and certified Scrum Master with seven years of experience coaching teams, business analysts, managers and senior executives on agile values, principles and practices. She leads and manages the process of delivering software products, as well as providing coaching and mentoring to various individuals and teams on how to become more agile and deliver value more effectively. Kemi is also the author of the incredible book taking action, the busy entrepreneurs guide to mastering time management and setting SMART goals a must read for anyone ready to see their ideas move from dream to reality. We're so excited to welcome Kemi as our latest tech sister, thank you so much for coming on. 

Kemi Hassan  1:13  
Thank you. And thank you Grace for having me today. I'm really excited to be here. 

Grace Witter  1:18  
Alhamdulillah. That's great. So how about we get started with how you first got into tech

Kemi Hassan  1:24  
into tech? Well, um, I actually got into tech for a friend. And she sort of introduced me to the various roles and responsibilities that are sort of available in this space, which is quite intriguing and interesting for me, as somebody who hasn't come from a traditional tech background, so I don't have an IT degree, I don't have a computer science degree, I guess I was particularly drawn to the fact that you actually don't need to have those kinds of backgrounds and degrees, etc, in order to go to work in the space. So I was particularly drawn to project management, business analysis, etc. And yeah, I started off as a business analyst eventually became a scrum master. And from where I am today, I thoroughly enjoy it 

Grace Witter  2:05  
alhamdulillah. I like what you said about not needing those qualifications to get into tech. Because like you, I don't have a degree in it. either. I sort of fell in myself, it's just sort of finding, I wanted to find something where I could work from home back before it was cool. And it just so happened that I liked it. Do you feel like that held you back in any way? Not having those qualifications or that background in tech? 

Kemi Hassan  2:27  
Absolutely. For me, I'd say it. It held me back not because I didn't have them. But because of the internal dialogue that I used to have in the early days of my career, that imposter syndrome Exactly. Because I didn't have a computer science degree because I didn't have an IT degree. Especially like I said, in the early days, I used to constantly doubt my doubt myself in terms of, you know, am I deserving to be in this space? You know, I had a lot of negative internal dialogue. You know, am I good enough? I had a lot of that going on, I definitely felt like I was in some some some kind of imposter in the early days. And I would say that impacted me in terms of parts, maybe opportunities I could have probably pursued early on in early days, because I kind of felt like I didn't quite, you know, I didn't quite belong.

Grace Witter  3:14  
I think what you touched on is such a universal feeling. But it's one of those feelings that when you're experiencing it, you feel like no one else is experiencing it. You know, but there are so many people, especially women who feel that way, that they are not deserving of the position that they have, or they're an imposter. Maybe my next question is, how did you push through that?

Kemi Hassan  3:40  
 I just did, right? So despite, despite you know those thoughts, despite those negative, you know, force that constantly sort of swung my mind, I knew that in order to succeed, I just had to keep going despite. So even though I felt that way, I still would pursue my goals and aspirations. And the fact that I was constantly I guess, in demand, the fact that I would get a lot of positive feedback, the fact that a lot of people would have such a good thing to say about my work, obviously, they help to validate what it is that I do know, and I continue to progress in that regard. So my advice to anybody who is experiencing imposter syndrome of any sort, and sort of anything similar to this niche is that just do it anyway. You know, like you've said, most of us, have those thoughts have those things and we do, sometimes we live with imposter syndrome. And it is certainly on a day to day basis. You just have to kind of push through despite them. And I would say you're in that space, because you get I guess you deserve to be in that space, because you wouldn't be in the past. 

Grace Witter  4:44  
Yeah. So keep showing up doing the work. And there's all this external validation that you can have that kind of can offset the negative internal model that we get, right? 

Kemi Hassan  4:57  
Absolutely. Absolutely. That You know, there are for me, obviously, I went on to pursue different professional qualifications. So I try and respond to both, for instance, or, you know, my PSM one, my pspo, you know, you can, you can you can, you can upskill, right? You can, you can retrain, you can, you know, like I said, validate what it is that you do or don't know, by essentially developing yourself. And so the options there, you know, don't, don't, don't let that imposter syndrome stop you from taking action. 

Grace Witter  5:26  
So as you're doing your work, and you you've become the Scrum Master, and you've gotten these qualifications, Mashallah, what is motivating your work now, and what keeps it exciting for you, 

Kemi Hassan  5:36  
as an individual, I am motivated by helping others succeed, full stop. So, for me, whether that is in the personal or professional realm, I, you know, there's some there's a, there's a, there's something exciting and incredibly rewarding to help people, you know, achieve their goals. And whether that's on the individual, individual basis, or on a team basis or on an organisational basis. For me, it's really exciting to be able to help other people do that, you know, essentially help them win. on a day to day basis on my job, you know, I help team members become more self managing self organising, and it's just nice way to help them realise and grow as individuals on an organisational level and amendment. For example, in the current climate, every business is affected by the ever increasing, rapidly changing economy that we live in, right. So businesses have to become agile. And my job as an as a scrum master as a coach is to help businesses survive and thrive by being able to adapt. And for me, it's it's incredibly exciting to do. So. I love being able to facilitate transformation. 

Grace Witter  6:47  
MashAllah, I like how you ended that. It does sound like your motivation is very, very strongly connected to your values and the sense of contribution to individuals and to businesses.

Kemi Hassan  6:59  
 It really is, it really is, I think there's something you know, you can't describe the feeling that you get when you're actually able to help people achieve. 

Grace Witter  7:07  
Yeah, alhamdulillah, the barrakah you get as well, just from from helping somebody do that. And especially if it's something that I can put their life in a new direction, or something that's more closely aligned to what they wanted to do. Absolutely. I read a piece that you wrote about the difference between doing agile and being agile. And I think like he said, a lot of businesses are starting to introduce agile workflow. But what I've observed in my own personal experience, it's usually like a very pick and mix kind of way of doing it. And they're not, but at least for very small companies, usually so inclined to do like, dive in and do full Scrum and have a scrum master and that sort of thing. What do you think the difference is between picking and choosing agile methodologies versus doing the full thing? What can be some of the benefits? Why are these companies potentially missing out on? 

Kemi Hassan  8:02  
 So when you think about agile, a lot of companies we're first starting now, we tend to think about those common practices that you hear of so for example, stand ups, right, I'm sure your company is doing some kind of a stand up. So there's added up that people do debate stand up, or perhaps they do some kind of review. And that's fine, you know, those obviously have their value. So the practices of Agile are beneficial, okay. However, the idea of being agile is more ingrained in being able to adopt the practice, or the principles and values of agile. So putting people people before processes, for example, being able to embrace change, wherever it is book by the fact that we're living in a rapidly evolving climate right now, if you can't, if businesses can't, that's, you know, essentially the the data right now. And we're witnessing left, right and centre, the idea of having face to face conversations, working software, all of this stuff this is about this is this is really war ideas about embodying those values embodying those principles of agile. Now, if and that's the harder, right, because it is not visible, you can't, you know, if you can't see, for example, if you're, if you're, there's no visible if the people that your teams are trusted, for instance, the idea of trust is one that's ingrained deeply in, in Agile, there's a definite things that take some time to change and shift. And so I would say for companies and organisations wanting to be agile, the focus needs to be on those areas, when the values and the principles, one of the first very important things that need that needs to be done when a company wants to shift. Agile is looking at where you are now, how are we against agile principles? How are we against the Agile value? How are we in terms of delivery, how we in terms of on how they're motivated individuals? And how are we in terms of sustainable development, those are the kind of things that need to be looked at. And then we need to defend the continent and needs to define the future state and I deal with future state and you know, begin to work towards steps in order to achieve that future state. So an answer to your question is about embody and practising. And we live in those agile values and principles. And that that takes time. 

Grace Witter  10:11  
Yes, I do like, especially what you were saying about having people before processes and building trust. And what that made me think of is, we're observing a lot of pushback from some companies who want workers to come back into the office after working remotely. And it seems like a lot of the root of that is this sense of control that while we are all at home, we were still being very productive. But we weren't, like, I guess, being controlled directly. And I think with a true embodiment of those agile values and principles, you trust your team members, you trust your colleagues. And you it goes along with self management. Right?

Kemi Hassan  10:56  
Yeah, you do. And, and that's the bit that sometimes, like I said, can be harder for organisations, because real companies are obviously used in the same way, you know, they used to work in a certain way they used to work in, not to say that they didn't used to be trust, but following, you know, you know, Richard pan, for example. And then having things done in a particular order, was the norm. And now, you know, that, you know, agile invented evangelist of common actually isn't he was saying that we want to do things a new way, it can be a little bit uncomfortable for some people and  organisations. So it just takes a little bit of time, and getting used to. And certainly, trust takes a lot.

Grace Witter  11:38  
Yes. I want to transition a little bit to your book, taking action. So it's about helping people, especially women achieving their dreams through goal setting. So what do you think is holding most women back from acting on their dreams? 

Kemi Hassan  11:54  
So I think what holds obstinate about what holds everybody back? Most people back from taking action, if across a particular area is the mindset. Okay, it's a thought. So thinking I believe it was happening for nurses. But I said, whether you think you can or you think you can't, it's true. Okay. So it starts I think success or failure starts when the mind whether or not you think you can or you think you can't impact women, I guess even take any kind of action. Okay, I think there's there's been some studies that show that I think about 70 to 80% of our internal dialogue, of course, I go on and on mine tends to be negative. And so how does this impact action? Well, the things that we think affects the way that we feel, and the way that we feel our emotions are effective, and we take action on doing it. So if you think for example, you know, I can't do it, you know, so it's like, you know, I'm not good enough, then that's gonna make you feel demoralised. Right, that's the kind of you look that you're not going to feel empowered. If you think about, Oh, my God, it's such a big task. If, for example, you're starting a business or changing a career, it's such a big task involve too much, you know, where do I even start, those kind of thoughts, overwhelm you, and then that most cases, prevent people from taking action. So it all stems from what's going in your mind is to stem from what you're thinking of moving on the positive and the negative. And like I said, eventually, both effects will fall apart and things and it will propel you into action, or Bostonian progress. 

Grace Witter  13:33  
So that's connecting also, with what we were saying at the beginning of the interview about that negative inner monologue, the imposter syndrome holding you back. So someone is experiencing this, and they're being really held back by their mindset. What can they do to overcome that? 

Kemi Hassan  13:49  
And I think, definitely one of the very first things that we need to do with the person would need to do would be to, first of all, be aware of what's going on. So you know, you can't change them from the reading, there's no awareness of it. You don't even know it's there, then the difficulty changes. So first of all, it's being more aware, more conscious of what kind of thoughts you're thinking. And then when you're aware of you know, those thoughts, then you can begin to change them or challenge them. So if you know, I'm not good enough, for example, says who, you know, where do we know whether that's part stem from I am good enough, I deserve to be in this place and let it be in his environment, I can do it. By changing those negative thoughts into positive thoughts you came up with the President can begin to have better and more positive emotions, feelings around whatever goal he or she trying to achieve, and that will eventually help the person take action. Okay. So for example, instead of thinking of the idea of changing careers are such a big task I'm just using as an example. Perhaps thinking okay, know what, it's achievable. I can do this and look for evidence in the past whereby perhaps you know, you've done something similar, and then focusing on the kind of emotion how you want to feel  Once you begin to take action in that area, you know, again, so I think, you know, it's a big task, I can't do it, I have to break it down. Okay, you know, what can I do, you know, I can perhaps look at training providers, I can look at, you know, specific courses I'd like to take, break it down into smaller, you know, action to the smaller things I need to be done. Because it could overwhelm is one that often prevents people from from, from taking actions even begin to think of the big tasks or something small and can break it up, but helps people to actually feel like it's more achievable, more doable, and worse, you know, action begets action, once you start going, then that kind of creates a ripple effect. And that will eventually help you get to what it 

Grace Witter  15:37  
sounds like, there's two main steps. So identifying the core problem of what's holding you back, identifying where you want to be, and then figuring out how to get from A to B, and breaking down that journey into very small actionable chunks. Yeah, exactly. I'm wondering also, what do you think the role is in a supportive community in helping somebody to get there?

Kemi Hassan  16:05  
 Oh, it's profound. It's not, you know, your network, people that you engage with, can either influence you, influence you positively or negatively. If you're surrounded by people who are not of a similar mindset, we're not trying to achieve similar things as you are, it can, it can pull you back. Whereas if you're in the right community, or if you're hanging out with people who are similar minded, who have similar goals, aspirations, will perhaps have done the three things that you like to do that definitely makes a big difference in, in helping you achieve your goals. So yes, it's very important to have a good ecosystem of people that can help support you, and you know, hold your hand your life almost on, you know, on this journey, I feel like this is where I should shamelessly plug that tech sisters can be in a supportive community. Nothing serious about it, and your relatives, that's what they're for. And if you have aspirations to come to this kind of space that absolutely take advantage of of platform for tech sisters, reality is we you know, we are fortunate to be in a digital era, you know, so a lot of things that weren't previously accessible to us a lot more accessible now, you know, thanks to technology, etc. So definitely, you know, make useful parts and bike like this to potentially help you for for your for your gym. 

Grace Witter  17:23  
Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking back on how I got into technology a couple years ago, and it's changed so much, just in terms of what's available for self studying the communities that are available support somebody who's transitioning from, you know, just being a stay at home mom like I was, or other careers into technology. And there's so many more pathways for so many people who have shared experience with that, I you can just join, join a group and say, I have this aspiration to do this. I'm tired of being a teacher. And now I want to try building websites. And there's so many people who have done something similar to that. And they can help you and they know the kind of the the roadmap. 

Kemi Hassan  18:02  
Exactly. And that will help you achieve a faster absolutely a lot of people make the mistake of trying to figure out things on there. And you can you can do it. Sometimes they just it takes a lot longer than if you have somebody who can simply show you the path, show you how they've done it makes it helps us speed up the process and journey. 

Grace Witter  18:20  
Kemi what is one thing that you're most proud of? So it can be personal or career could be somebody that you've helped? What is it and why is it so special for you, 

Kemi Hassan  18:29  
I actually co founded a company called locum locum is a scrum master training company that helps people who work don't come from traditional tech backgrounds who want to transition into becoming a scrum master. And I founded this company about a year and a half ago. Now, the purpose was to, like I said, help them change their careers successfully, really proud to say we've been able to do that successfully over and over again, you know, by providing, you know, resources, and the environment we spoke about, you know, how is how important is to have the right environment, in terms of the people around you who are on similar journey, the platform has really helped propel people into successful sponsor roles now. And that's something I'm really, really proud of. Because, you know, as, as you know, it's one thing to have an idea but actually, I love it's actually execute it and see it flourish. And that's what's happened with coconut I'm really, really proud of that sounds really wonderful and so impactful as well. Yes, you know, I'm really big on making a big impact, you know, through my work, working on some other stuff with them in the past, for example, my book, you know, I'm able to realise, you know, to realise that negatively tend to leave a big impact in different ways. Something that really

Grace Witter  20:00  
What is something on your journey that you regret? Or maybe you wish you did it differently? 

Kemi Hassan  20:05  
So I, I don't know this cliche, but I don't regret anything. Okay? I'm a big believer in everything happens for a reason. And, you know, I believe that my background, even though I personally was not tech related, I used to be a teacher. So before coming into tech space, I taught in a in a university in Saudi Arabia as my last teaching job. And I believe that everything I've learned along the way, along the way in my journey has contributed to who I am today, it helps me to be good trainer helps me to help me For example, to be patient as a coach to meds etc. So I'm really grateful for my for my journey, I'm grateful for the things that I have done. And we could do that, but I didn't do. And so how do I repair anything known really, really believe everything, everything that I've done in the past has led me to where I am today. And I'm just grateful for that 

Grace Witter  21:02  
So even if it felt like a setback at the time, or like a limitation at the time, you have the realisation and the space to acknowledge that it has all contributed to where you are now. And it's all part of saw part of the puzzle that makes you you. what is something or someone that you feel very grateful for, doesn't have to be one,

Kemi Hassan  21:37  
I'm just grateful for the people that I have around me. And when I say that, I mean, you know, my mentors, I've got a great mentor and endless plan. Now, she helped me with regards to just help in revising in terms of my professional development. And I'm grateful for her input and advice to let you know, in that regard, you know, had some amazing managers again, who have been very trusted me, they trusted me, they've encouraged me and, again, help to support my professional growth. So I've had, you know, for example, them there in Belgium, you know, and my first element of that was that I've predicted, I've had various various various people just support me in my journey. And I'm obviously really grateful for them. And I think we spoke about the importance of having, you know, being around the right people. And even even Of course, the sort of my colleagues, my peers, again, we support each other, we help each other along the way we would fight each other. And like I said, I got along with people, I'll be here. If I did that, but they've certainly helped to get me to where I am today, just being being amongst good people. really been something I've been blessed. Yes. 100. Yeah, the blessing of good company, good friends who are supportive and help you to grow, help each other grow.

Grace Witter  22:56  
Absolutely, that's beautiful. Mashallah, is there anything else, any last words of wisdom that you'd like to leave us with?

Kemi Hassan  23:03  
Just that, you know, if you want to do it, go for it. So if you're like me,

who has come from a non tech space, you know, doesn't have the computer degree, don't feel intimidated, there are surprisingly, a vast amount of people that are in the tech space, we don't have these, you know, orientations.

And, luckily, today, there are so many different professional courses that you can take in order to live, you know, to build a skill set, skill set. So one of the things that you need to do is to identify your skills. And so see,

in relation to the sort of various worlds out there, which one of you thought best suits me? And just go for it? You know, go for it. There's so much out there, there are so many communities help

support you along the way miraculously, Texas does. Yeah, just I would say, if you've been thinking about it, please just Just do it. What have you got to lose? What have you got to lose exactly?

Grace Witter  24:03  
The handler, and if someone wants to follow you and see what you're up to, where's a good place where they can get updates from your work? They can follow me on LinkedIn, you know, kay Hassan, on LinkedIn, LinkedIn. And I'm also on Instagram as well. Excellent. We'll put the links of that in description. Thank you so much for joining us today. I really enjoyed our talk. Thank you very much grace. It was lovely being here. Thank you very much.

I hope you like that story as much as I did. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to it. Please consider following us and leaving a review. If you liked this episode, that really helps us a lot. And if you're a Muslim woman in tech, please go ahead and join our community. It's free. It's fun, supportive. It's a great time. That's all for me. Sorry.

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